86 replies to this topic

[TheMicroPlanet]

Yes, but they only compete to insure that the best genes are expressed, which does indeed affect the genetic health of the superorganism, but it isn't, by necessity, unfitting for a superorganism. Besides, if the individuals were a little smarter (sarcastic understatement), they'd probably hold a meeting to see who gets the mating rights with whom in a sensible and reasonable manner.

What i'm trying to say is that individual breeding is possible (or logically coherent, rather) within a superorganism, as long as it's not accompanied by competition. The only problem is that it's uncommon, if not nonexistant.

Edited by TheMicroPlanet, March 19 2020 - 9:22 AM.

[RushmoreAnts]

Yes, but they only compete to insure that the best genes are expressed, which does indeed affect the genetic health of the superorganism, but it isn't, by necessity, unfitting for a superorganism

In ants, this appears to be displayed through pleometrophism.

[ponerinecat]

Yes, but they only compete to insure that the best genes are expressed, which does indeed affect the genetic health of the superorganism, but it isn't, by necessity, unfitting for a superorganism. Besides, if the individuals were a little smarter (sarcastic understatement), they'd probably hold a meeting to see who gets the mating rights with whom in a sensible and reasonable manner.

What i'm trying to say is that individual breeding is possible (or logically coherent, rather) within a superorganism, as long as it's not accompanied by competition. The only problem is that it's uncommon, if not nonexistant.

Competition among an entire species is also to ensure the best genes are present. Doesn't mean the entire species is a superorganism. Individual breeding among a superorganism is never a thing. Most utilize asexual cloning to grow the colony and only use sexual reproduction when two colonies meet. Superorganisms are not simply groups of animals that work together. They are colonies of specialized animals completely dependent on one another, so much so that they can be classified as one animal. When superorganisms breed, they create new superorganisms, instead of simply increasing the number of individuals within the superorganism.

[RushmoreAnts]

Think of the queens as the eggs and stem cells, the males as sperm, and the workers as cells/tissues.

[ponerinecat]

Think of the queens as the eggs and stem cells, the males as sperm, and the workers as cells/tissues.

This only works in some ant colonies, in others the colonies are rife with competition and individual goals.

[TheMicroPlanet]

Competition among an entire species is also to ensure the best genes are present.

I wasn't talking about entire species, though... I was talking more along the lines of populations or something like that. 

 

 

Individual breeding among a superorganism is never a thing.

I already conceded to that when I said "What i'm trying to say is that individual breeding is possible (or logically coherent, rather) within a superorganism, as long as it's not accompanied by competition. The only problem is that it's uncommon, if not nonexistant."

 

 

Superorganisms are not simply groups of animals that work together. They are colonies of specialized animals completely dependent on one another, so much so that they can be classified as one animal.

I think i've made that clear a few times on this thread and other places.

 

 

When superorganisms breed, they create new superorganisms, instead of simply increasing the number of individuals within the superorganism.

Well, yeah. I'm not denying that at all.

 

Anyway, good (and orderly) discussion so far. Let's keep it that way    (that was also a note to myself)

[TheMicroPlanet]

And again, individual breeding is logically coherent with the concept of a superorganism, but is unused throughout nature possibly because such organisms lack the mental faculties to reason things out  (like humans). So the choices are either to compete for mating rights and NOT be a superorganism, or eliminate/limit competition for breeding rights and be a superorganism.

 

I hope you understand what i'm trying to say... i've never been too good at communicating all the nonsense that goes on in my head 

Edited by TheMicroPlanet, March 19 2020 - 4:05 PM.

[TheMicroPlanet]

Think of the queens as the eggs and stem cells, the males as sperm, and the workers as cells/tissues.

I already see superorganisms as some sort of parallel to simpler bodies like that.

[ponerinecat]

And again, individual breeding is logically coherent with the concept of a superorganism, but is unused throughout nature possibly because such organisms lack the mental faculties to reason things out  (like humans). So the choices are either to compete for mating rights and NOT be a superorganism, or eliminate/limit competition for breeding rights and be a superorganism.

 

I hope you understand what i'm trying to say... i've never been too good at communicating all the nonsense that goes on in my head 

To make it more clear, superorganisms are multimulticelluar organisms. Their "cells" have cells.

[TheMicroPlanet]

[deleted]

Edited by TheMicroPlanet, March 20 2020 - 10:11 AM.

[TheMicroPlanet]

To make it more clear, superorganisms are multimulticelluar organisms. Their "cells" have cells.

Yes, I know that and have known that prior to this conversation. I know what a superorganism is (probably more than most in this world), but we're talking about whether or not individual breeding can be included in a superorganism. Let me explain what i'm saying for the 3rd time...

 

I think that it is logical that individual breeding can exist in a superorganism, not that it's always possible. So let's say you have a theoretical superorganism who's individuals held a meeting one day to decide who breeds with whom, taking into account genetics, fitness, etc. Thusly, they can draw reasonable conclusions. Of course, this scenario IS as rediculous as it sounds because there's no example of it in nature. I might add that all superorganisms in nature don't have the mental faculties to reason things out like humans, and so are left with one option*, competition.

 

Also, in siphonophores (and other colonial cnidaria), individuals can reproduce asexually in a regular manner without competition. Of course, it is asexual reproduction, but it's still a form of individual reproduction within one of the most notable examples of a superorganism.

 

*When I say one option, it's not as if they had much of a choice.

Edited by TheMicroPlanet, March 20 2020 - 10:11 AM.

[TheMicroPlanet]

Really interesting video about Siphonophores

https://www.youtube....h?v=5aHuaLOVriQ

 

Honestly, thinking about these things gives me chills, and not because they're scary; it's more because of just how plain ol' epic they are, to put it crudely.

[RushmoreAnts]

This is why I don’t swim in the ocean.

[TheMicroPlanet]

https://www.youtube....h?v=_99ghxAEfiM

It's like the ocean said hello and goodbye at the same time.

[ponerinecat]

That last siphonophore was pretty terrifying. I could see a horror movie based around these. Giant, uncaring, all consuming drifter...

[RushmoreAnts]

It’s make a good sci fi. Intelligent man-eating siphonophores invade Earth.........

[TheMicroPlanet]

Wouldn't survive long on land though...

 

Siphonophore in the sea: I am a thing of nightmares. I strike terror into the very soul of all who look upon me!!!

 

Siphonophore on land: I am a hopeless blob.

Edited by TheMicroPlanet, March 23 2020 - 5:02 PM.

[ponerinecat]

Siphonophore + air sac individuals + gas lighter than the air around us = nightmare

[TheMicroPlanet]

Now give it some lasers and send it on it's way.

[TheMicroPlanet]

Siphonophore + air sac individuals + gas lighter than the air around us = nightmare

It'd probably need some way of staying hydrated. I guess it'd have to stick around the coastline, in that case.