16 replies to this topic

[Antennal_Scrobe]

In the antkeeping hobby, we always unmated queens "infertile", but is that really correct? Infertility refers to a biological inability to have have young, but as far as I can tell any "infertile" queen could have easily raised workers had she mated. 

[ANTdrew]

It would be more accurate for people to say unmated or something along those lines.

[ponerinecat]

sometimes mated queens are unreceptive or the sperm is not in good condition as well.

[Shifty189]

This is a good point. and as far as i have read (NOT an expert here) there have been no studies about this. We really don't know if a queen that doesn't lay eggs COULD lay eggs if she where mated, or if she even was mated with in the first place in most cases. We need to research these little girls more to learn there secrets.

Edited by Shifty189, August 29 2019 - 6:57 PM.

[ANTdrew]

We certainly don’t go around calling people without children infertile. That wouldn’t gain you many friends!
In fact, a few years ago before I had children of my own, I once had a conversation with a coworker. This person has limited social cues and no filter. Right after I told him I didn’t have children yet, he assumed I had a “plumbing issue.” Lmao! Lo and behold, I am not infertile after all and have two lovely children.
I think it’s safe to assume that the vast majority of queens are fertile whether they mate or not.

Edited by ANTdrew, August 30 2019 - 1:29 AM.

[ConcordAntman]

🤔I’m not sure infertility is an appropriate term with respect to queens. In theory, all queens are fertile. The salient question is whether the queen has been inseminated. In bees, wasps, and ants, the sex of an egg is determined by whether it has been fertilized. An unfertilized egg produces a male. A fertilized egg produces a female. It follows from this that only queens and workers have the genetic material from both male and female reproductive forms (diploidy) while the male has only the genetic material from the male reproductive form (haploidy). Whether a female egg becomes a queen or a worker is determined by the colony’s state and how the egg is nurtured. In a mature colony replete with resources, the hormones supplied to the egg/larva/pupa by its nurturing workers will allow the full development of ovaries and that pupa will become a virgin queen. In a less sated colony, the egg/larva/pupa’s nurturing will direct it toward poorly developed ovaries thus creating a worker. In some species many of the workers are capable of laying eggs. These unfertilized eggs will, if nurtured, develop into a male. So, all queens are fertile. Their egg laying and the development of their eggs is determined by their health and the founding colony’s conditions. The sex is determined by whether the egg has been fertilized, and the caste is determined by how the egg/larva/pupa is nurtured.

Edited by ConcordAntman, August 30 2019 - 5:18 PM.

[ponerinecat]

I’m not sure infertility is an appropriate term with respect to queens. In theory, all queens are fertile. The salient question is whether the queen has been inseminated. In bees, wasps, and ants, the sex of an egg is determined by whether it has been fertilized. An unfertilized egg produces a male. A fertilized egg produces a female. It follows from this that only queens and workers have the genetic material from both male and female reproductive forms (diploidy) while the male has only the genetic material from the male reproductive form (haploidy). Whether a female egg becomes a queen or a worker is determined by the colony’s state and how the egg is nurtured. In a mature colony replete with resources, the hormones supplied to the egg/larva/pupa by its nurturing workers will allow the full development of ovaries and that pupa will become a virgin queen. In a less sated colony, the egg/larva/pupa’s nurturing will direct it toward poorly developed ovaries thus creating a worker. In some species many of the workers are capable of laying eggs. These unfertilized eggs will, if nurtured, develop into a male. So, all queens are fertile. Their egg laying and the development of their eggs is determined by their health and the founding colony’s conditions. The sex is determined by whether the egg has been fertilized, and the caste is determined by how the egg/larva/pupa is nurtured.

Some queens are genetically unreceptive and thus never able to be fertilized.

[RushmoreAnts]

This means that some workers are fertile too.....

[ponerinecat]

gamergates

[ConcordAntman]

Some queens are genetically unreceptive and thus never able to be fertilized.

🤔Explain. From what I’ve read, genetically you’re either male or female. The hormonal support the female gets determines whether her ovaries are functional or atrophied.

Attached Files

•  Caste Development and Evolution in Ants.pdf   816.01KB   593 downloads

Edited by ConcordAntman, September 1 2019 - 7:54 AM.

[ConcordAntman]

This means that some workers are fertile too.....

Yes, they can be in some species under certain conditions.

[ponerinecat]

 

 

 

Some queens are genetically unreceptive and thus never able to be fertilized.

Explain. From what I’ve read, genetically you’re either male or female. The hormonal support the female gets determines whether her ovaries are functional or atrophied.

 

Unreceptive to sperm.

still can mate

[Antennal_Scrobe]

Nice to see people are discussing this. I just thought it was weird that when a queen doesn't raise workers we immediately assume she was never capable of doing so.

[ConcordAntman]

Some queens are genetically unreceptive and thus never able to be fertilized.

Explain. From what I’ve read, genetically you’re either male or female. The hormonal support the female gets determines whether her ovaries are functional or atrophied.

Unreceptive to sperm.still can mate

I’m not so sure. I agree that some female ants are “unreceptive to sperm”. That’s because their ovaries are atrophied. However, it does not have a genetic basis. These ants have been been hormonally castrated through the care they were given as they developed from egg-larva-pupa-adult. According to the article I attached, depending on the colony’s needs and according to the egg-larva-pupa‘s care, the resulting adult female can lie anywhere along the spectrum from small worker with atrophied ovaries to almost queen-like with functional ovaries (the gamergate you mentioned). Again, these are not genetically mediated but a result of how the egg-larva-pupa‘s care influences its development.

[ponerinecat]

No, I meant a queen that is unable to produce or has a hard time producing workers.

[ConcordAntman]

No, I meant a queen that is unable to produce or has a hard time producing workers.

OK, I get that. Perhaps as a result of illness, developmental defect, or an inhospitable environment, but I wouldn’t suggest that it occurs on a genetic basis. There’s no benefit to the species to create queens that have difficulty producing brood.

[ponerinecat]

 

No, I meant a queen that is unable to produce or has a hard time producing workers.

OK, I get that. Perhaps as a result of illness, developmental defect, or an inhospitable environment, but I wouldn’t suggest that it occurs on a genetic basis. There’s no benefit to the species to create queens that have difficulty producing brood.

 

yeah, it's a defect. low fertility.