109 replies to this topic

[FSTP]

I've seen that a vender or two maybe offering Pogonomyrmex occidentalis "colonies" (A colony being a Queen with at least one worker) with workers that have not been produced by the queen one would be receiving. Meaning this queen has been offered pupae from an established colony of Pogonomyrmex occidentalis and has accepted these pupae and allowed them to eclose into workers she then recognizes as her own. This is known as brood boosting. There is nothing wrong with this and ant keepers often do this to give newly dealate queens a head start in founding a colony. However there are somethings you may want to have a better understanding of before you purchase a queen with only boosted workers. While it maybe exciting and fun to see this new Queen with workers I would not consider this a founded colony and neither should you. Just because you now have boosted workers this is not a guarantee you will get more workers. Why is this you might wonder? There are many reasons a queen, whether she mated or not, will fail to produce workers. She could be infertile, fertility is not 100% assured just because a queen has dropped her wings and was collected from a founding chamber. The mating could have been unsuccessful, the sperm she received could have been non viable. She also may just be genetically a poor candidate for success, for example she could be overly sensitive to environmental stressors or lack an appropriate maternal instinct and readily consume her own eggs.

 

These are some of the issues you maybe faced with when purchasing a queen Pogonomyrmex occidentalis with only boosted workers, in short the queen is not proven to be viable just because she has accepted these introduced workers. 

 

 I find it a bit irksome to see this happening. Selling these boosted queens as "Advanced colonies" (that's what one vender is describing these as) seems a bit misleading, they're queens that have yet to found a colony they just happen to have some adopted workers. I don't think I could, in good conscious, call this an "Advanced Colony" and go on to sell them for the prices I'm seeing. 

 

So if you're considering purchasing one of these so called "advanced colonies" just know you're taking on much more risk then you would be compared to purchasing a queen with workers she produced on her own. 

 

Ideally I'd like to see use of brood boosting as a means of more quickly founding a colony ensuring that the queen is viable and producing her own workers before it is sold. 

Edited by FSTP, August 19 2019 - 2:15 AM.

[drtrmiller]

This is important stuff, for a few reasons.

 

Many Ant Species Produce Large Numbers of Gynes, But Few Strong Colonies

 

 

For many species of ants, reproduction is considered an R-selected strategy: each season, over any given area of establishment, such colonies may produce astronomical numbers of expendable reproductives—the vast majority of whom do not survive or go on to produce durable colonies.  For particularly well-established species, the number of released alate gynes may be so staggeringly high—in the millions or potentially billions—as to appear on weather radar as precipitation during their nuptial flight.

 

The high mortality rate of independent foundress queens is partly to blame on the incredibly difficult and competitive nature of colony founding, with habitat quality, weather conditions, and predators all critical factors for whether a new foundress queen may prosper.

 

However, even in the care of a captive setup—and in the hands of an inexperienced antkeeper, one might hardly call it "care"—many founding queens will either produce few offspring and generally fail to thrive, or will die for no apparent reason at all.  The most likely culprit in these cases is genetic variation, making some gynes unfit even when kept in an optimal environment.  It has also been shown that queens invest more energy in reproduction than in immunity from disease, making them particularly less durable than workers in many cases.

 

Queens are a lottery ticket—you don't know what you're going to get until the numbers are drawn at the end of the day, and most are going to lose.

 

How Valuable Is a Queen Ant?

 

 

It is one thing to buy these queens directly from the vendor who has collected them, and who may sell a new queen without workers for anywhere from $2 to $10 each, depending on the supply.  However, the practices outlined in the above post seem wholly unethical if discussing queens that have already undergone the stress of being transported across the country (Pogonomyrmex occidentalis is principally established in the Western US), and then must survive the rigors of shipping a second time.

 

Unproven queens are so cheap and expendable, one of the foremost ant stores in Europe offers an entire colony, containing a queen with 5-15 workers, for each customer order, for free, including species like harvester ant species (Messor barbarus).  What we have in this situation, is not even a case where a leading US manufacturer has bought all the gas at the station and is then charging $40 a gallon—at least gasoline is a reliable product.  What we have instead, is a company that has bought all the lottery tickets at the gas station, and now they're reselling them for up to 20 times the going rate.

 

I don't think history will be kind to individuals who exploited the opportunity to offer "boosted" harvester ant queens who have yet to produce any genetic offspring for $90 plus shipping.  In time, I'm certain we will see the price drop precipitously as more sellers enter the marketplace.  However for now, it is definitely important to shine a light on these predatory suppliers who seem all too willing to exploit the passion and ignorance of inexperienced hobbyists, as these incredibly poor and costly purchase experiences may end up causing irreparable damage to the hobby, even if the effects are not felt immediately.

Edited by drtrmiller, August 19 2019 - 6:37 AM.

[Serafine]

Unproven queens are so cheap and expendable, one of the foremost ant stores in Europe offers a queen for each customer order, for free, including species like harvester ant species (Messor barbarus).

This shop is actually selling small colonies for free, in fact all ants they have are free (one per order, although the base shipping cost is relatively high with around 11€).

They only sell ants that were locally collected so they have a rather small selection compared to other european shops. And they often send 2 colonies per order if one doesn't survive transport (my Camponotus barbaricus were such a "spare colony").

 

I'm fairly confident that once Uncle Milton is starting to gear up and adapts to the new situation they're likely to adopt this practice of giving free ants when you buy an ant setup - which will obviously smash the entire market.

Edited by Serafine, August 19 2019 - 3:16 AM.

[Ants4fun]

We should see how supply and demand affects the market in the coming months. I’d usually refrain from commenting, as I’ve usually had pretty good experiences with said company, but essentially your paying $30 more for 5 pupae... I don’t want to say highway robbery, but... I initially thought that the advanced colony came with the starter formicarium, but now I see it’s just advanced options that come with free. I think if they are going to charge $90, they might as well throw in a formicarium...

[Martialis]

I wonder how much potential harm to the wild populations of P. occidentalis collection of queens on a commercial scale could cause.  

[123LordOfAnts123]

I wonder how much potential harm to the wild populations of P. occidentalis collection of queens on a commercial scale could cause.

They’re a very, very common and widespread species that occurs in just about any habitat suitable for them. The main threat to founding queens would be competition from mature colonies and other ants. Their largest human influenced threats would be invasive species and habitat loss. The same holds true for most ants. Collecting queens, even in large amounts, will do little harm to a species unless they’re already very rare or occur in declining habitat specific to their ecology.

Edited by 123LordOfAnts123, August 19 2019 - 7:13 AM.

[dspdrew]

Yeah, it's likely almost every queen collected would have ended up dead before next year's mating flights.

[antsinmypants]

Now that the queens of this species are worth 'substantially' more than before, it is conceivable that collecting them on private or public property may become a liability. If a private property owner gives consent for me to go anting, but I did not inform him of the resale value of these queens (as if I knew I was going to find them), I could lose my case in court if I attempted to sue him. In a park, collecting specimens are generally forbidden. If caught, the situation would only be made worse if the specimens had monetary worth. Your thoughts?

[FSTP]

Now that the queens of this species are worth 'substantially' more than before, it is conceivable that collecting them on private or public property may become a liability. If a private property owner gives consent for me to go anting, but I did not inform him of the resale value of these queens (as if I knew I was going to find them), I could lose my case in court if I attempted to sue him. In a park, collecting specimens are generally forbidden. If caught, the situation would only be made worse if the specimens had monetary worth. Your thoughts?

 

Yeah I could see that maybe being a potential issue at some point in the future. As anting slowly moves closer and closer to a more commercialized hobby in the US. 

 

Also I see you're in Fresno, So am I! we'll have to go anting sometime ;-).

[gcsnelling]

 

"So if you're considering purchasing one of these so called "advanced colonies" just know you're taking on much more risk then you would be compared to purchasing a queen with workers she produced on her own. "

 

 

You deserve what you get if you buy one of these boosted colonies for any more than you might pay for a queen. Far as I am concerned this is little more than a scam to weasel more money out of the unsuspecting.

Edited by gcsnelling, August 19 2019 - 3:40 PM.

[dermy]

 

 

"So if you're considering purchasing one of these so called "advanced colonies" just know you're taking on much more risk then you would be compared to purchasing a queen with workers she produced on her own. "

 

 

You deserve what you get if you buy one of these boosted colonies for any more than you might pay for a queen. Far as I am concerned this is little more than a scam to weasel more money out of the unsuspecting.

 

Whilst I would agree with you had this been for hobbyists who have been in it for awhile (even then I don't think anyone who has been in the hobby for awhile would go with a boosted colony, hopefully they'd have enough experience/knowledge to know the pitfalls of that.) It would appear to be more aimed at beginners, and not to start anything, but a lot of beginners are younger kids, teens etc. who more often than not aren't going to take the time to research into what species are right for starting out, pricing etc.

[LearningAntz]

"So if you're considering purchasing one of these so called "advanced colonies" just know you're taking on much more risk then you would be compared to purchasing a queen with workers she produced on her own. "


You deserve what you get if you buy one of these boosted colonies for any more than you might pay for a queen. Far as I am concerned this is little more than a scam to weasel more money out of the unsuspecting.

Whilst I would agree with you had this been for hobbyists who have been in it for awhile (even then I don't think anyone who has been in the hobby for awhile would go with a boosted colony, hopefully they'd have enough experience/knowledge to know the pitfalls of that.) It would appear to be more aimed at beginners, and not to start anything, but a lot of beginners are younger kids, teens etc. who more often than not aren't going to take the time to research into what species are right for starting out, pricing etc.

In my experience I find that teens who are interested in ant-keeping actually take a lot more time to do research.

[PacificNorthWestern]

 

 

"So if you're considering purchasing one of these so called "advanced colonies" just know you're taking on much more risk then you would be compared to purchasing a queen with workers she produced on her own. "


You deserve what you get if you buy one of these boosted colonies for any more than you might pay for a queen. Far as I am concerned this is little more than a scam to weasel more money out of the unsuspecting.

Whilst I would agree with you had this been for hobbyists who have been in it for awhile (even then I don't think anyone who has been in the hobby for awhile would go with a boosted colony, hopefully they'd have enough experience/knowledge to know the pitfalls of that.) It would appear to be more aimed at beginners, and not to start anything, but a lot of beginners are younger kids, teens etc. who more often than not aren't going to take the time to research into what species are right for starting out, pricing etc.

In my experience I find that teens who are interested in ant-keeping actually take a lot more time to do research.

 

As a kid, I would like to say our attention span is criminally short, and even the kids and younger teens may look over things read things differently and so on. Were kinda known for that. On top of that, a lot of kids don't really care or do the research and just watch and look up to Antscanada. They get the wrong idea, find that it takes patience and is boring to start up and drop the hobby or buy an "advanced" colony if they find THA. Every kid is different so it's kinda a hit or miss on this hobby. a lot of kids and teens getting into the hobby probably aren't gonna know THA in the first place so i'm not really concerned about them getting "scammed". It's not our fault if they buy it, they should've done some research and they just wasted 90 bucks of their own money

Edited by PacificNorthWestern, August 19 2019 - 10:31 PM.

[LearningAntz]

"So if you're considering purchasing one of these so called "advanced colonies" just know you're taking on much more risk then you would be compared to purchasing a queen with workers she produced on her own. "


You deserve what you get if you buy one of these boosted colonies for any more than you might pay for a queen. Far as I am concerned this is little more than a scam to weasel more money out of the unsuspecting.

Whilst I would agree with you had this been for hobbyists who have been in it for awhile (even then I don't think anyone who has been in the hobby for awhile would go with a boosted colony, hopefully they'd have enough experience/knowledge to know the pitfalls of that.) It would appear to be more aimed at beginners, and not to start anything, but a lot of beginners are younger kids, teens etc. who more often than not aren't going to take the time to research into what species are right for starting out, pricing etc.

In my experience I find that teens who are interested in ant-keeping actually take a lot more time to do research.

As a kid, I would like to say our attention span is criminally short, and even the kids and younger teens may look over things read things differently and so on. Were kinda known for that. On top of that, a lot of kids don't really care or do the research and just watch and look up to Antscanada. They get the wrong idea, find that it takes patience and is boring to start up and drop the hobby or buy an "advanced" colony if they find THA. Every kid is different so it's kinda a hit or miss on this hobby. a lot of kids and teens getting into the hobby probably aren't gonna know THA in the first place so i'm not really concerned about them getting "scammed". It's not our fault if they buy it, they should've done some research and they just wasted 90 bucks of their own money

I’m not sure how that is the case for literally everyone online but never in real life. Everyone I’ve ever gotten to know is nothing like that. Adolescents are thought to be naive and ignorant in many aspects of life when really the opposite is true for the most part.

[PacificNorthWestern]

 

 

 

 

"So if you're considering purchasing one of these so called "advanced colonies" just know you're taking on much more risk then you would be compared to purchasing a queen with workers she produced on her own. "


You deserve what you get if you buy one of these boosted colonies for any more than you might pay for a queen. Far as I am concerned this is little more than a scam to weasel more money out of the unsuspecting.

Whilst I would agree with you had this been for hobbyists who have been in it for awhile (even then I don't think anyone who has been in the hobby for awhile would go with a boosted colony, hopefully they'd have enough experience/knowledge to know the pitfalls of that.) It would appear to be more aimed at beginners, and not to start anything, but a lot of beginners are younger kids, teens etc. who more often than not aren't going to take the time to research into what species are right for starting out, pricing etc.

In my experience I find that teens who are interested in ant-keeping actually take a lot more time to do research.

As a kid, I would like to say our attention span is criminally short, and even the kids and younger teens may look over things read things differently and so on. Were kinda known for that. On top of that, a lot of kids don't really care or do the research and just watch and look up to Antscanada. They get the wrong idea, find that it takes patience and is boring to start up and drop the hobby or buy an "advanced" colony if they find THA. Every kid is different so it's kinda a hit or miss on this hobby. a lot of kids and teens getting into the hobby probably aren't gonna know THA in the first place so i'm not really concerned about them getting "scammed". It's not our fault if they buy it, they should've done some research and they just wasted 90 bucks of their own money

I’m not sure how that is the case for literally everyone online but never in real life. Everyone I’ve ever gotten to know is nothing like that. Adolescents are thought to be naive and ignorant in many aspects of life when really the opposite is true for the most part.

 

Of course not everyone is like this and i'm sorry if it sounded like this, I was just pointing out something that I have seen in real life with my friends, who end up neglecting the queen or letting it go. Never have I ever had a friend who will take the time to do their research, or really cares at all. Just saying what could happen and what i've seen happen.  

[Silq]

 

 

 

In my experience I find that teens who are interested in ant-keeping actually take a lot more time to do research.

As a kid, I would like to say our attention span is criminally short, and even the kids and younger teens may look over things read things differently and so on. Were kinda known for that. On top of that, a lot of kids don't really care or do the research and just watch and look up to Antscanada. They get the wrong idea, find that it takes patience and is boring to start up and drop the hobby or buy an "advanced" colony if they find THA. Every kid is different so it's kinda a hit or miss on this hobby. a lot of kids and teens getting into the hobby probably aren't gonna know THA in the first place so i'm not really concerned about them getting "scammed". It's not our fault if they buy it, they should've done some research and they just wasted 90 bucks of their own money

I’m not sure how that is the case for literally everyone online but never in real life. Everyone I’ve ever gotten to know is nothing like that. Adolescents are thought to be naive and ignorant in many aspects of life when really the opposite is true for the most part.

 

Of course not everyone is like this and i'm sorry if it sounded like this, I was just pointing out something that I have seen in real life with my friends, who end up neglecting the queen or letting it go. Never have I ever had a friend who will take the time to do their research, or really cares at all. Just saying what could happen and what i've seen happen.  

 

I agree with FeelingAntz. I feel like as an adult I have a shorter attention span. For the most part, I have an idea or opinion about most things and feel like I know pretty much know a little bit about anything to come to draw a quick conclusion which isn't correct in reality. When people are talking to me, I already am ignoring them and figuring out what I am going to respond. As a teen and child, I was soaking everything in. I had accomplished quite a bit as a 12 year old pre-flip phone days. When you didn't have all the information on the internet like you do now, I actually had to pay attention. So I can agree that kids are not ignorant and naive especially since my wife is teaching someone's 2 and 3 year old how to speak 2nd language already.

[PacificNorthWestern]

I don't want to comment on this "argument" anymore. You have experienced life up to it's adult hood and can provide tons of examples. It would be childish of me to pick out all the little tiny things that happen to me or that I see. I'm simply saying what i've seen or what i've heard, or what i've done. I procrastinate, cram assignments on the last day, forget about my chores, etc. etc. all the little things. maybe not all adults have longer attention span than me, but a great majority do.

[Mercutia]

I think it would not matter if it was kids being taken advantage of our ill informed adults. The biggest standing issue is that whomever buys this colony is clearly being had however there is nothing we can do for them but to try and shine a light on this issue and make the rest of the community aware. 

 

I just wish there was more integrity within our vendors, especially knowing this vendor is a long standing and respected member of the community, it is disheartening watching this. You can say you're educating your consumers all you want but anyone with half a conscience would know better than to convince someone to buy an unproven queen with boosted workers at this price just for a quick buck. It's pretty crooked IMO.

 

The problem also is by creating such a difference in price between queen alone and queen with boosting, to the uneducated person the higher price tag and with the writing "The success rate of these colonies has been close to 100%, much higher than a queen alone." is going to guarantee that a user thinks there is a huge jump in success when realistically, brood boosting doesn't guarantee the viability of the queen at all. I find this HIGHLY problematic. Where did this statistic even come from? Where are your studies on this statistic? It is highly misleading to be saying something like this to consumers that don't know any better at at least in my experience, is misleading at best, or just plain WRONG at worst. 

 

I would prefer to give the benefit of the doubt, but knowing how long such a person has been in the hobby, I can't in good conscience say "well they just didn't know any better". I can see this being more a "well if they're going to pay that price, as uneducated as they are, i'm going to capitalize on that" which is unfortunate but really doesn't surprise me.

Edited by Mercutia, August 20 2019 - 8:54 AM.

[FSTP]

I think as a community we really need to just talk about these boosted queens or "advanced colonies" (as one vender puts it) more and more, as well as to help make it understood how undesireable they are and why. In doing so hopefully venders will eventually no longer offer these boosted queens to their customers as they're no longer profitable as no one wants them. 

 

However, I'm already seeing how one niche anting community (one of the many discords) is responding to the idea of these boosted queens and they seem to think its perfectly ok because to quote one random member "success is skyrocketed with boosted queens".  Its been my experience that boosting is helpful and shortens the founding time but it is not likely to increase the given success rate of a queen that would otherwise find it difficult to found a colony. It only shortens the duration time needed to found a colony from a queen that would have likely founded a colony despite being boosted. The way these boosted colonies are being marketed makes it seem as though this boosted queen is the perfect solution to having an instant colony of ants. When this couldn't be further from the truth. You're essentially just receiving a freshly captured queen with all the risks and troubles that entails and then paying the price you would for an stabled legitimate colony. 

Edited by FSTP, August 20 2019 - 2:21 PM.

[soulsynapse]

Having spoken to "a vendor" (cute, guys), the person in question got feedback from several actual entomologists, has papers to back his findings, as well as founding strategy from people who have kept this species for over 8 years. 

 

I'd ask those in this thread to consider the extent of your own sources and experience before claiming they know better.

 

That said, are you all so thankless and ungrateful for the growth "a vendor" has brought to the community that it's worth it to not even give him benefit of the doubt? A scammer? At worst this is a misinformed venture, and in actuality, it's probably the best way to have a successful colony, given the research done. FSTP, you of all people being ungrateful for THA is laughable. And byFormica jumping in the dog pile is a level of unprofessionalism I don't expect from you at all.

 

You don't have to pull other people down to raise yourself up. I'm disappointed that none of you can see the bigger picture, or will even take the time to consider that what

 

1) what THA is doing is what he feels is best for his customers and

2) even if you're certain he's wrong, that making a thread to bash him is the way to help fix the problem.

 

But the reality is this thread doesn't even matter. It's one thread that unless you keep bumping it, will be pushed down into nothing, and nothing will change. So even if you guys were right, this isn't even the way to go about it - if you TALK with people and convince them how to do things, nobody is going to act in bad faith and people will try to do the best that they can.

 

This isn't civil discourse, these are just a thiny veiled pot shots. It's just more crabs in a meaningless bucket trying to pull eachother down, a petty showcase of how not to change things for the better. An exercise in meaningless bridge burning.

 

Acting like THA is the worst in the hobby I don't see you guys banning actual, self confessed scammers when I brought it to your attention.

 

So if the mods don't care about scammers, if anybody else would like to conclude what everyone in this thread is actually doing, feel free to make your own conclusions.

 

I think you're all better than this and this thread is an embarassment. Do better.