60 replies to this topic

[William. T]

Yeah.

Edited by William. T, March 21 2015 - 9:01 AM.

[BugFinder]

I've always considered animal rights and conservation to be two separate things. I've found that animal rights tends to be about treating animals humanely and ending emotional and physical abuse. The focus is on the individual and tends to go no further than that. Conservation tends to be about protecting a species for the future, preserving natural habitat, sustainable practices with natural resources, and such. The focus is much broader, with a mind for tomorrow, and usually science based. I know I'm probably splitting hairs but it's how I filter out the myriad piles of garbage one can so easily step into in life.

 

Don't let them fool you.  The HSUS and other animal rights organizations actively lobby to make hunting illegal where they can, and more difficult/expensive where they can't, under the guise of animal rights.

[William. T]

The thing is, we need hunters to maintain deer and moose population. Their natural predators are eliminated, thus hunters are needed to avoid a total breakdown, when there are too many deer and no resources due to the explosive population, and then almost all the deer die of starvation or plagues or are hit by cars.  I know this is off topic, but this shows how much those activists are foolishly caring for those furry animals like deer, when the hunters are the real caretakers are the population, eliminating the sick that would spread diseases, or the genetically defected that will breed more genetically defected, as predators do in the wild, with real science to back this up. The deer turn then turn into a plague for humanity. Where are the activists when one of their treasured white tailed deer transmit a tick that has Lyme disease and kills a person? I wish ants had this devotion!

[ctantkeeper]

i find it to be a horrible irony (the way the western world treats insects and other invertebrates). most people easily list them off as vectors for disease, agricultural pests, etc. when very few species pertain to this category. most insects are beneficial and are so important that the world's ecosystem would not be able to function without them!!! in a way, insects are our life support. i also agree with you guys on the amount of attention CCD has stirred up in the past few months. although bees are incredibly important to our environment, millions of others species play an equally important role in our ecosystem. the way insects are treated by the community is horrendous. to see what i mean, watch this video

 

 

the person who did this thought that the insect was impervious to pain, so he decided it would be fun to brutally slaughter it

[ctantkeeper]

btw, check out the comments for this video!!!!

[dspdrew]

It is believed that insects this small do not actually feel pain the way we do. But yes, most of the world is pretty ignorant when it comes to stuff like this.

[Myrmicinae]

It is believed that insects this small do not actually feel pain the way we do. But yes, most of the world is pretty ignorant when it comes to stuff like this.

 

That is what scientists assumed about dogs as well for a very long time.  Insects certainly react to and learn to avoid noxious stimuli, so it seems quite probable to me that they can experience "pain."  Of course, you could always argue that they do not possess the neurological complexity for consciousness, a prerequisite for pain.  However, we as humans understand so little about this subject that it is pointless making statements such as this.

 

See:

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22880632

Edited by Myrmicinae, April 30 2015 - 8:51 AM.

[Vendayn]

Whether they feel pain like we do or not is kinda moot if they feel a different kind of pain. Its still pain.

 

Like plants, there was a test on a head of lettuce. When they cut into it...I forgot the exact results...but with their instruments they recorded something similar to "screaming" or very high pitched sounds in their instruments when the lettuce was cut into. And plants do respond to even music.My grandma had a plant, and it was really healthy. On the TV was the same exact kind of plant, and they were blasting it with rap music. On the TV the plant died the following day (they skipped time of course). The next day, my grandma's plant had died.

 

So if plants respond to things like that, no reason insects wouldn't. It might not be similar to what we experience, but why does it matter if its similar or not?

Edited by Vendayn, April 30 2015 - 8:12 AM.

[Vendayn]

Plus, for a long time people thought snails couldn't feel "pain". Now in the UK (dunno about elsewhere) its animal cruelty if someone puts salt on snails. And people now know salt is really painful to snails. I know they aren't insects, but point remains/

[Mercutia]

Whether they feel pain like we do or not is kinda moot if they feel a different kind of pain. Its still pain.

 

Like plants, there was a test on a head of lettuce. When they cut into it...I forgot the exact results...but with their instruments they recorded something similar to "screaming" or very high pitched sounds in their instruments when the lettuce was cut into. And plants do respond to even music.My grandma had a plant, and it was really healthy. On the TV was the same exact kind of plant, and they were blasting it with rap music. On the TV the plant died the following day (they skipped time of course). The next day, my grandma's plant had died.

 

So if plants respond to things like that, no reason insects wouldn't. It might not be similar to what we experience, but why does it matter if its similar or not?

http://www.discovery...king-to-plants/

 

That plant + music thing is a myth. It's no bigger coincidence than if I spoke happy words to my water before drinking it and suddenly I feel happy (this one my mom believes in).

 

And I'd really like to know where you found this article about lettuce screaming when cut. It sounds hoax-y like the microwaved water kills plants hoax.

 

Responsiveness and pain are two very very different things. Just because a plant responds a certain way, does not mean it "feels pain".

 

Pain is defined as:

1.

physical suffering or distress, as due to injury, illness, etc.

2.

a distressing sensation in a particular part of the body:

a back pain.

3.

mental or emotional suffering or torment:

I am sorry my news causes you such pain.

 

Without the neurological capacity, ie, a brain or some sort of nervous system a plant cannot feel pain because it cannot process "feelings". By that regard, one can have a nervous system but are unable to feel pain, hence pain is processed through the brain in order to be interpreted in to a sensory "feeling". If the brain doesn't process the injury as "pain" than there is no pain, whether an injury (physical or mental) is present.

 

So the question is do ANTS feel pain?

http://antfarm.yuku....=1#.VUJtFpPEIgR

 

Trager/Doctorant posts: Bert Hoelldobler, myrmecologist extraordinaire, claims they do not feel pain as we know it. They walk about seemingly quite painlessly with some rather serious damage done to their bodies.

 

The key here is "as we know it". It is not a dismissal of a "pain" response, however, they do not feel it in the same capacity that we do which should be noted. Dogs have the capability to feel pain our level because their neurological system is very similar to ours. The same goes with the majority of mammals and other vertebrates. The problem with invertebrates is that those that even have a neurological system will greatly differ from ours and thus the information garnered from their sensory organs will be interpreted by their "brains" differently. This doesn't even begin to cover reactions and response due to reflex, responses not processed at all by the brain. What drew said "It is believed that insects this small do not actually feel pain the way we do." is true because they don't feel the pain the way we do, biologically.

 

There is just a lot of hoax-type information floating on this thread I thought I ought to clarify.

[BugFinder]

Thank you for contributing that Mercutia.  It was very well written, and well sourced.  I always love it when someone puts the focus back on facts, instead of myths.

 

So considering Mercutias contribution, I guess the next logical question in this thread is as follows:  How does pain/suffering correspond to laws that govern how people are allowed to act with respect to animals?  Should we be prohibited from conducting medical experiments on animals that can save countless human lives?  Should the fact that dogs suffer like people do mean it should be illegal to kill and consume one? If we are to extend what are essentially human civil rights to animals, why stop there?  Shouldn't it also be illegal to eat a potato or to burn firewood to stay warm?  Michael Shermer, in his books "The Moral Arc" and "The Science of Good and Evil" seems to think the line is drawn at sentience, and that all sentient beings have, or should have rights.  Sam Harris seems to agree with most of Shermers thesis.

 

My own personal morality makes it unthinkable to cause, or to allow an animal to suffer unnecessarily, but I think the idea that animals do or should have rights, codified and enforced by human laws is a ridiculously stupid idea that reveals a fundamental misunderstanding of what rights actually are and where they come from.  I also think that idea would ultimately cause more suffering than it cures, for animals and for people.  

 

Although I admire Shermer and Harris tremendously (especially Harris), and I love most of their work, I can't seem to find a way to agree with them on this topic, even though I have tried hard.  Anyone who feels differently than I do is invited to persuade me that I'm wrong; If those arguments are based on critical thinking and the scientific method, instead of irrational thinking and superstitious thinking, I will seriously consider them.

Edited by BugFinder, April 30 2015 - 10:51 AM.

[BugFinder]

Here is a great example of for my earlier claim that hunters do more for conservation than animal rights activists and environmentalists.  It's a very short read, and well sourced.

[Mercutia]

Same thing goes with the fur trade.

 

 

All these industries get a lot of flack because of the nature and propaganda surrounding the industry. It is a bad misconception.

[BugFinder]

What a great video!  Thank you for sharing that, I had not seen that, and even though I'm an avid hunter, I had no idea they were using traps that don't injure the animal caught in the trap, and that domestic animals can be released from those traps unharmed, I had no idea because most trapping like that is not legal in CA.  I'm grateful to you for sharing that video with us.

Edited by BugFinder, April 30 2015 - 2:07 PM.

[SamKeepsAnts]

If all the money we spend on keeping a few useless pandas alive went to stopping CCD (Colony collapse disorder) in bees then we would have already fixed it and helped bees repopulate better than they where before.

[Salmon]

Bizarrely, it's been shown that although many simple minded invertebrates such as annelids, mollusks and crustaceans possess nociceptors, insects don't. So they probably don't feel pain in exactly the same way we do. I don't take it as evidence that they lack the capacity for suffering, though.

[ctantkeeper]

i find it to be a horrible irony (the way the western world treats insects and other invertebrates). most people easily list them off as vectors for disease, agricultural pests, etc. when very few species pertain to this category. most insects are beneficial and are so important that the world's ecosystem would not be able to function without them!!! in a way, insects are our life support. i also agree with you guys on the amount of attention CCD has stirred up in the past few months. although bees are incredibly important to our environment, millions of others species play an equally important role in our ecosystem. the way insects are treated by the community is horrendous. to see what i mean, watch this video

 

 

the person who did this thought that the insect was impervious to pain, so he decided it would be fun to brutally slaughter it

I saw this a year ago and felt like throwing my computer. People really disgust me sometimes. Shortly after seeing this video, i was inspired to make this post on facebook and even though it was written about a year ago, it still seems to hold quite a bit of weight : 

 

This is a wonderful article. I highly recommend that anyone who has the time should give it a look. I, personally am sick of answering questions such as "why can't we kill all of species x?" or "what's the purpose of species y?" or the even more blunt and self serving "what will species z do for me? They are worthless and there are so many of them, so killing loads of them is completely justified.". Questions like these are asked more often then not and it is really starting to bother me a bit. I have a good feeling that many of you guys can relate to this.

 

Link: https://opinionator....d=fb-share&_r=0

 

P.S. I couldn't agree more with what you said earlier, there have been times in which I had said (albeit a bit eerie) the EXACT same thing (almost word for word). That to me is absolutely insane.

Edited by ctantkeeper, January 30 2017 - 3:11 PM.

[Leo]

i saw a little kid attempting to maul something with a stick, apparently it was a female ant alate. i asked him if he hated ants. he said "no" i asked him why he did it he said "bah its just a bug so what? These don't even do anything. Also why do you care, go away" i retrieved the ant's body and tossed it into the bushes then asked"would you do this to a dog?" he stared at me "Of course not, dogs are adorable they are so furry!"  

this is how people react to dogs 

This is how they react to ants 

[Connectimyrmex]

Once, I saw some kids mauling a group of Ochetellus queens. I asked them "Isn't this animal abuse?" because saying that often helps me get little kids to stop doing these acts. Those kids said "But bugs aren't animals, right?". Wow.

 

I saved two queens and they have some workers now.

[ctantkeeper]

I think I just hate people in general and those that I like are the exception. I try to keep an open mind and to value the opinions of others, even if we disagree. But sometimes I just can't get over how vile and despicable people can be. For example, while on a field trip, I kayaked to a small, remote sandbar with several other students and a biology teacher near the mouth of the Connecticut river. Upon arrival, we collected samples and talked about the local fauna and flora, some of which were quite unique and interesting. While traveling along the sandbar, one of the students noticed a small jellyfish about 5-6 meters away from us, trapped in the shallows. He then proceeded to break a stick off of a nearby piece of driftwood and walk over to it in order to stab it and eviscerate it. He then proceeded to smear its viscera across the beach and stomp its remains into the ground. when asked why he did so, he replied in a emotionless, careless manner : "It could of hurt us. I had to kill it first!!! its only a jellyfish!!! who gives a f#@k!!!". Several other classmates joined him in killing several fish, countless jellyfish and other small animals throughout the course of the trip. In most cases the teacher was well aware but legally couldn't do much to intervene. Later while eating lunch, he walked over to me and whispered into my ear that he would kill every last ant that he saw on the island simply to make me reach my boiling point. As you can imagine, I gave him what he deserved. Everyone left me behind and I kayaked back to the harbor alone.

Edited by ctantkeeper, January 30 2017 - 7:24 PM.