10 replies to this topic

[madbiologist]

Ok, so last week I caught 2 Formica Integra queens. Sadly, the bigger one (13-14mm) died, but the smallest one has survived. I've got a picture of her below. I knew what pupae she needed as hosts, Fusca group, but I couldn't seem to find any of their nests in my yard, so I asked around and got some from another antkeepers near me. I've been told it's a good idea to pour half in and then wait a day to make sure nothing goes wrong. I got 23 pupae in total, so I put half in today and I'm going to put half in tomorrow. A pic of them added in is below. Then I realized that there wasn't any water in her tube! It turns out there was a crack in the tube and all the water leaked out, so I dumped them into a new tube. That picture is after the old tube. I may do another small update tomorrow after adding more pupae, and many thanks to AntsBC for identifying both queens!

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[rbarreto]

Some of those larger pupae look like alates pupae.

[madbiologist]

rbarreto, on 10 Jul 2019 - 04:00 AM, said:

Some of those larger pupae look like alates pupae.

I figured they were just majors, I guess we'll see. I figured alates are bigger than that.

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Edited by madbiologist, July 9 2019 - 8:06 PM.

[Dork]

Looks great Madman!  I agree with rbarreto about the alate pupae.  That has happened to me most of the time when I've done such things.  No worries ... they are good protein.  And your young colony with recycle them nicely.

[madbiologist]

Final update: I woke up this morning to a dead queen. I'm not really sure what could've gone wrong, but I will find a use for the pupae. Would my pallidefulva colony take fusca group pupae? Or maybe my subanescens queen?

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[VenomousBeast]

I caught a Formica integra just a few days ago. She is doing good so far, she has 5-6 introduced Formica fusca pupa and I fed her some sugar water the other day to be sure she does well by the time the pupa eclose.

[rbarreto]

Literally the exact same thing happened to me. My queen just randomly died right after I gave her some brood.

[AntsBC]

A lot of Formica rufa group species cannot open pupae, and/or just don't fare well with them. This case was no exception, I guess.

 

I have seen countless people introduce pupae instead of workers to Formica parasites, without success. And, because of this, I'm starting to believe that the old myth that all you needed to give Formica parasites was pupae for them to survive, is actually partially incorrect. Sure, some species will fair just fine with pupae alone, but I'm really starting to think that the vast majority of F. rufa group species won't. 

 

The only group of Formica in which all members species have truly proven to be able to succeed with pupae alone would be the F. sanguinea group. In the wild, slave raiding Formica queens are known to single handily raid host colonies, take their brood, and stash it inside a burrow. Later, they will open the pupae they have stole from the host colony and let the newborn slaves take care of their brood.

 

For these reasons, I'm beginning to advise ant keepers to introduce host workers before you introduce pupae to F. rufa group parasites. It's easier then looking for and introducing pupae, (and if you know what you're doing), it seems to work more consistently.

Edited by AntsBC, July 10 2019 - 4:45 PM.

[AnthonyP163]

AntsBC, on 11 Jul 2019 - 12:43 AM, said:

A lot of Formica rufa group species cannot open pupae, and/or just don't fare well with them. This case was no exception, I guess.

 

I have seen countless people introduce pupae instead of workers to Formica parasites, without success. And, because of this, I'm starting to believe that the old myth that all you needed to give Formica parasites was pupae for them to survive, is actually partially incorrect. Sure, some species will fair just fine with pupae alone, but I'm really starting to think that the vast majority of F. rufa group species won't. 

 

The only group of Formica in which all members species have truly proven to be able to succeed with pupae alone would be the F. sanguinea group. In the wild, slave raiding Formica queens are known to single handily raid host colonies, take their brood, and stash it inside a burrow. Later, they will open the pupae they have stole from the host colony and let the newborn slaves take care of their brood.

 

For these reasons, I'm beginning to advise ant keepers to introduce host workers before you introduce pupae to F. rufa group parasites. It's easier then looking for and introducing pupae, (and if you know what you're doing), it seems to work more consistently.

I highly doubt it was the pupae that killed the queen. There's no reason or evidence of this, as many social parasites die whether you give them pupae. It could be that conditions were odd, humidity, maybe, or even something like not having any substrate. These seem like a more likely explanation than the introduction of pupae (which the queen would have to be by in the wild anyway).

[madbiologist]

AnthonyP163, on 11 Jul 2019 - 12:59 AM, said:

AntsBC, on 11 Jul 2019 - 12:43 AM, said:

A lot of Formica rufa group species cannot open pupae, and/or just don't fare well with them. This case was no exception, I guess.

I have seen countless people introduce pupae instead of workers to Formica parasites, without success. And, because of this, I'm starting to believe that the old myth that all you needed to give Formica parasites was pupae for them to survive, is actually partially incorrect. Sure, some species will fair just fine with pupae alone, but I'm really starting to think that the vast majority of F. rufa group species won't.

The only group of Formica in which all members species have truly proven to be able to succeed with pupae alone would be the F. sanguinea group. In the wild, slave raiding Formica queens are known to single handily raid host colonies, take their brood, and stash it inside a burrow. Later, they will open the pupae they have stole from the host colony and let the newborn slaves take care of their brood.

For these reasons, I'm beginning to advise ant keepers to introduce host workers before you introduce pupae to F. rufa group parasites. It's easier then looking for and introducing pupae, (and if you know what you're doing), it seems to work more consistently.

I highly doubt it was the pupae that killed the queen. There's no reason or evidence of this, as many social parasites die whether you give them pupae. It could be that conditions were odd, humidity, maybe, or even something like not having any substrate. These seem like a more likely explanation than the introduction of pupae (which the queen would have to be by in the wild anyway).

I think what he was trying to say is that Rufa group queens don't open pupae, and so that could be a reason for her death.

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[AnthonyP163]

madbiologist, on 11 Jul 2019 - 01:06 AM, said:

 

AnthonyP163, on 11 Jul 2019 - 12:59 AM, said:

 

AntsBC, on 11 Jul 2019 - 12:43 AM, said:

A lot of Formica rufa group species cannot open pupae, and/or just don't fare well with them. This case was no exception, I guess.

I have seen countless people introduce pupae instead of workers to Formica parasites, without success. And, because of this, I'm starting to believe that the old myth that all you needed to give Formica parasites was pupae for them to survive, is actually partially incorrect. Sure, some species will fair just fine with pupae alone, but I'm really starting to think that the vast majority of F. rufa group species won't.

The only group of Formica in which all members species have truly proven to be able to succeed with pupae alone would be the F. sanguinea group. In the wild, slave raiding Formica queens are known to single handily raid host colonies, take their brood, and stash it inside a burrow. Later, they will open the pupae they have stole from the host colony and let the newborn slaves take care of their brood.

For these reasons, I'm beginning to advise ant keepers to introduce host workers before you introduce pupae to F. rufa group parasites. It's easier then looking for and introducing pupae, (and if you know what you're doing), it seems to work more consistently.

I highly doubt it was the pupae that killed the queen. There's no reason or evidence of this, as many social parasites die whether you give them pupae. It could be that conditions were odd, humidity, maybe, or even something like not having any substrate. These seem like a more likely explanation than the introduction of pupae (which the queen would have to be by in the wild anyway).

I think what he was trying to say is that Rufa group queens don't open pupae, and so that could be a reason for her death.

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This would be plausible if she had the pupae for a long time. Pupae are not ready to be opened immediately. I've had F. integra (about two summers ago), and she opened her pupae just fine.