23 replies to this topic

[ZllGGY]

So i just received an email from an APHIS official and he stated that "The movement of ant queens/plant pests through state borders may be allowed but it depends on the species and geography" so from what he is saying I'm taking it that if its either the same species or such a different climate that if they did escape they could never make it that you can in fact transport queen ants and colonies across state borders. i will also ask for greater clarification from this person also about that.

[Kalidas]

Oh neat, that could mean that people up north could keep say for example southern ant species like Myrmecocystus Mexicanus because they would never survive the cold

[ZllGGY]

Oh neat, that could mean that people up north could keep say for example southern ant species like Myrmecocystus Mexicanus because they would never survive the cold

exactly but i will email him later tonight as i need to send him a spread sheet so when i find out more information ill post it here

[Kalidas]

Now just because something is legal doesn't mean it is a good idea. Back to my example such a species would be very hard to keep alive and healthy in such a climate without very costly and intensive climate control measures in your house. Even a slight screw up could kill them all and that would be sad. So one must ask not only "is this legal" but also "is this moral?"

[ZllGGY]

Now just because something is legal doesn't mean it is a good idea. Back to my example such a species would be very hard to keep alive and healthy in such a climate without very costly and intensive climate control measures in your house. Even a slight screw up could kill them all and that would be sad. So one must ask not only "is this legal" but also "is this moral?"

well i think for an experienced keeper who may already have such things as a god portion of people in this hobby also have other pets that require certain climates but for new people probably not the best. for me though as I'm trying to start a business it would be super easy to keep certain climate conditions for anything as ill have all the equipment. i think its more of a situation based thing, but this would help people who missed out on a species they wanted and one state over that has the same species can just mail it to them would be kind of cool.

[gcsnelling]

You also have to consider whether it would be state legal. APHIS is federal but states will certainly have their own restrictions which can be far more restrictive than the  federal ones.

[Ferox_Formicae]

I wonder if Cephalotes varians would be able to survive a South Carolina winter. We never get below zero, but last year it got down to 17 degrees Fahrenheit. It's the coldest temperature I have ever experienced here in all of my nine year living here. I'll have to do some research on that.

[Serafine]

The problem is you can never be sure if ants are able to survive - I've read a journal where someone put his Messor aciculatus colony in one of his garden plant pots thinking they'd die anyway - he got serious breath problems because of mold in their setup so he had to move them outside (and no, it wasn't a great idea to put them in a flower pot) - but against all odds they survived winter with -20°C freezing temperature spikes  They didn't do great and in the end will probably get wiped out by local Myrmica and Lasius species but the fact that they were able to survive winter alone at temperatures considered far beyond what they thought to be able to survive is as remarkable as it is alarming.

 

In another case there was a guy who decided to let his Acromyrmex rome free in central Germany - they nested in the walls of his house and survived winter inside the warm walls (they probably had great die-offs due to food shortage but still that they survived winter at all is quite amazing). The whole thing only got busted when after a few years neighbours recognized exceptionally large ants ravaging through their gardens and cutting down their flowers.

 

So deciding which ants could become problematic and which can't is very difficult and most of the times environment officials decide to rather be safe than sorry. Once an ant population has established itself in a wider area it is often impossible to remove it entirely.

Edited by Serafine, November 15 2018 - 10:28 PM.

[ANTdrew]

Climate change is another factor to keep in mind. Moving around southern species just because they can't tolerate cold could potentially become an ecological disaster further down the line.

At least for me, the best part of this hobby is how much I've learned about my native ants and my growing appreciation for them.

[Ferox_Formicae]

Climate change is another factor to keep in mind. Moving around southern species just because they can't tolerate cold could potentially become an ecological disaster further down the line.

At least for me, the best part of this hobby is how much I've learned about my native ants and my growing appreciation for them.

You've got a point. While we may not have Cephalotes sp. here in South Carolina, but we do have three species of Colobopsis one of which, Colobopsis obliqua, I own. They may not be as cool or related by any means, they have similar habits, as they both have a phragmotic major caste which block off the nest entrances.

[brianhershey]

APHIS official stated that "The movement of ant queens/plant pests through state borders may be allowed but it depends on the species and geography"

 

 

There are permits that will allow sale, import and export of specific species to and from specific areas. These permits are not a secret but for whatever reason not widely known. I know multiple people that have permits and based on their inspections and capabilities as an ant keeper they are approved, one species at a time, to have them shipped to them from anywhere in the US, even if the species is NOT native to the location of the person with the permit. The permit would then allow them to raise, sell and ship them but only to specific geo areas where the species is native. It's a big undertaking to get these permits and to build yourself up as a true multi-species ant seller here in the US. Sorry I don't have links to more info... it's something I would never do myself but I've enjoyed chatting with the people that have done it.

[gcsnelling]

I would want to see copies of any of these permits that someone claims to have, if they refuse to scan and post them that would tell me a lot.

[dspdrew]

Haha, anyone getting a permit also has to abide by super strict regulations, or face fines of 10's of thousands of dollars. I highly doubt they can just hand these ants out to people willy nilly. I can post an actual permit someone I know got, who ultimately decided to not do anything with because the regulations would have been almost impossible to abide by given their situation. it seems to be a lot of blanket rules, that in some situations just seem silly.

[T.C.]

Haha, anyone getting a permit also has to abide by super strict regulations, or face fines of 10's of thousands of dollars. I highly doubt they can just hand these ants out to people willy nilly. I can post an actual permit someone I know got, who ultimately decided to not do anything with because the regulations would have been almost impossible to abide by given their situation. it seems to be a lot of blanket rules, that in some situations just seem silly.

You've said you were gonna edit out the personal info on that permit and post it a few times.

[brianhershey]

I would want to see copies of any of these permits that someone claims to have, if they refuse to scan and post them that would tell me a lot.

 

I've seen the permits as well as drew, so really no need to be skeptical. One guy I had lengthy chats with was posting all the info in another ant group around a year ago... he was approved for 2 or 3 species last time I saw an update. I've seen the inspection forms and the improvements he had to make to his ant room before approval would proceed, etc. It's a fascinating process, you should learn about it instead of spinning conspiracy theories lol.

 

 

I highly doubt they can just hand these ants out to people willy nilly.

 

Who suggested people hand out ants in that fashion? They do much of their business between themselves, like a supply chain, large to small then to the final consumer. I know a permit holder in Florida (that ALSO has international permits) that raises a species only native to another part of the country, and sells to anyone in that native area... as long as they verify geography... an ADDRESS! They can sell and ship to them... there are NO other sale restrictions for that species for a very defined geographic area.

[brianhershey]

You've said you were gonna edit out the personal info on that permit and post it a few times.

 

 

And so the owner and moderator fan the flames of misinformation... YAY!!! lol SMH

[T.C.]

You've said you were gonna edit out the personal info on that permit and post it a few times.

And so the owner and moderator fan the flames of misinformation... YAY!!! lol SMH

What "misinformation" are you talking about? Every once in a while we get a kid like you on the site who gets all upset with some members post(s), that they don't entirely agree with. They come on trying to explain why they believe the other person is wrong, with yet no proof to back up their statement. Their argument is generally fueled by the fact they don't want what the other person stated to be true. Also, thanks for reminding me i'm a moderator. You broke rule 7.

. Post in legible, coherent English, without excessive use of emoticons, slang, chat acronyms, or instant messenger shorthand

Edited by T.C., November 16 2018 - 7:51 PM.

[GeorgeK]

 

APHIS official stated that "The movement of ant queens/plant pests through state borders may be allowed but it depends on the species and geography"

 

 

There are permits that will allow sale, import and export of specific species to and from specific areas. These permits are not a secret but for whatever reason not widely known. I know multiple people that have permits and based on their inspections and capabilities as an ant keeper they are approved, one species at a time, to have them shipped to them from anywhere in the US, even if the species is NOT native to the location of the person with the permit. The permit would then allow them to raise, sell and ship them but only to specific geo areas where the species is native. It's a big undertaking to get these permits and to build yourself up as a true multi-species ant seller here in the US. Sorry I don't have links to more info... it's something I would never do myself but I've enjoyed chatting with the people that have done it.

 

Show pics or it didn't happen

[Serafine]

You do know that you can look up every single permit on the USDA's website?

Currently there's a single permit holder in the entire state of NY, the NY university for Harpegnathos saltator. Everyone else from NY claiming he has a permit is a liar.

[gcsnelling]

You do know that you can look up every single permit on the USDA's website?

Currently there's a single permit holder in the entire state of NY, the NY university for Harpegnathos saltator. Everyone else from NY claiming he has a permit is a liar.

 

Can you post a ink to the appropriate page to perform such a records search?/