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Have to leave colony behind.


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24 replies to this topic

#1 Offline CozmoDog - Posted November 26 2016 - 9:30 AM

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Hey guys I haven't made a post on this site for quite some time now because I've been busy in real life.So here is the deal I will be leaving Greece soon,I will be travelling to Stockholm Sweden for studies and potentially I will be staying there maybe for good. I have in my hands a colony of Messor Wasmanni, They are currently slowly stopping their growth rate due to weather getting colder,But since I can't take them with me and have no one that can take care of them I thought of releasing them into the wild.(I know a place where there was an old harvester ant colony but I think it died) so I know that releasing a small colony into the wild is not good because they are bound to get eaten by other well established colonies but what about if the colony is close to 100 workers ? I still keep them in a big test tube which they have filled, I also have another question regarding ants in Sweden if there are messor native species can I take the colony with me if not what other cool ants does Sweden have that I should keep an eye out for ?and most importantly are there any ant species inside stockholm ? like I'm not an expert but since it snows there do ants survive the weather ?



#2 Offline Apex - Posted November 26 2016 - 9:59 AM

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#3 Offline Kevin - Posted November 26 2016 - 12:16 PM

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If the species is native in your area, you can let them go, but if not, freeze them. Also, next time you might get more replies if you spoke in coherent English... I had to read it about 5 times.


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#4 Offline drtrmiller - Posted November 26 2016 - 12:32 PM

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I thought that transportation of ants was allowed between EU countries, as long as they aren't in a high risk class.

The ants that live in northern latitudes have adapted or evolved to survive the cooler climate. Non-native ants, namely from tropical, subtropical, or desert regions, are unlikely to establish or reproduce in regions where the environment is much cooler compared to their native habitat. The development time is too slow, so they can never replenish workers quickly enough to grow the colony to maturity.

Edited by drtrmiller, November 26 2016 - 12:35 PM.

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#5 Offline Serafine - Posted November 26 2016 - 12:44 PM

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If they are native you can release them without problems, especially if you know a good place. And with Messor it is really really easy to give them some provisions, just leave a paper box full of seeds behind at a location next to the nest in a dry place and they will find it.


Edited by Serafine, November 26 2016 - 12:44 PM.

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#6 Offline gcsnelling - Posted November 26 2016 - 1:15 PM

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Releasing a captive colony whether native or not is never a good idea. If you can not keep them find a new home or destroy them.


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#7 Offline Serafine - Posted November 26 2016 - 4:41 PM

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Why the hell is it not a god idea? Ants are super useful to the ecosystem and in Germany there's even efforts to actively spread Formica rufa (the ant is threatened and population has gone down a lot in recent years which is bad for everyone as they keep the woods clear). As long as it is a native species it isn't a problem at all. Worst thing that can happen is that they don't survive.


Edited by Serafine, November 26 2016 - 4:42 PM.

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#8 Offline Solenoqueen - Posted November 26 2016 - 5:34 PM

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Why the hell is it not a god idea? Ants are super useful to the ecosystem and in Germany there's even efforts to actively spread Formica rufa (the ant is threatened and population has gone down a lot in recent years which is bad for everyone as they keep the woods clear). As long as it is a native species it isn't a problem at all. Worst thing that can happen is that they don't survive.

Language. You could get a warning for that.

 

I agree, but the language in this forum should stay clean as ever.


Edited by Solenoqueen, November 26 2016 - 5:35 PM.

:>


#9 Offline Reacker - Posted November 26 2016 - 7:26 PM

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Why the hell is it not a god idea? Ants are super useful to the ecosystem and in Germany there's even efforts to actively spread Formica rufa (the ant is threatened and population has gone down a lot in recent years which is bad for everyone as they keep the woods clear). As long as it is a native species it isn't a problem at all. Worst thing that can happen is that they don't survive.

 

 

I remember reading a post, perhaps by gcsnelling himself on Yuku, which listed a few reasons why releasing ants back into the wild from captivity is a bad thing:

 

1) Your ants could be carrying some kind of disease or parasite that may not have been present in the new area that you are releasing them into regardless of whether or not that species occurs there naturally. 

 

2) You could be introducing new genes into the population which can potentially make future study more difficult.

 

Or at least that's what I remember reading but I could easily be mistaken. 

 

Another thing that occurs to me is that amateur ant keepers are quite poor at species identification and are really happy to call ants they have captured as one species they see online that has some physiological similarities without bothering to go through the trouble of using a taxonomic key or expert identification to verify their haphazard ID. So this amateur thinks that have species A that occurs in the area that they are planning to release their ants into, but actually they have physiologically similar but distinct non-native species B. Perhaps introduction of this species B into the environment in question will be totally harmless because they can't survive there anyways; or maybe some geographical barrier was preventing them from moving into this new environment and now you've given an excellent foothold to a brand new invasive species that at best will be a harmless addition to the local ecosystem and can at worst cause the extinction of other competing species as well as other non-ant species that are not adapted to deal with this new species. Additionally there is a potential for unforeseen consequences to lead to billions of dollars in economic damages if this new invasive turns out to be chronically destructive to agricultural activity or to various domestic or commercial structures. These latter consequences are probably very unlikely for any given ant to be introduced into a temperate climate that they are not accustomed to, but I think that most reasonable people will agree that there is no reason to risk finding out. 

 

Regarding your suggestion that adding ants to Germany will not be a problem because Germany is actively trying to increase the amount of Formica rufa colonies: I believe that you are mistaken in your belief that all ants are equivalent. Even for native species there are so many factors to consider when you go about changing the relative balance of species of any type of animal in any environment that it is ridiculous to suggest that an amateur with no in depth knowledge of this subject should go around releasing colonies or individuals of whatever species regardless of whether or not that species occurs in that environment naturally. Also, it is possible that if your "native" species colony that you collected hundreds of miles away has a parasite or disease of some sort that does not occur among the population of that species in this new target area, you could be spreading that parasite to this new population that does not have the proper immunological defenses for it. Further, there is as with many diseases and parasites the potential to transfer hosts. So perhaps your well-meaning introduction of diseased ants of whatever species introduces a pathogen of whatever sort to Formica rufa and now the ants that are already present in insufficient numbers become even more scarce. Humanity's experience with disease is an excellent example of these types of outcomes. This result is also not very likely, but again I do not think that there is any reason to risk finding out. 

 

While amateur ant keepers going around releasing random ant colonies of whatever kinds into new environments and then talking about it online isn't a good idea for the reasons listed above, it is however an excellent way to attract the attention of both law enforcement agencies and regulatory bodies that work to prevent from occurring the negative outcomes that I described above. These organizations can be sufficiently motivated to legislate and regulate away your ability to legally import and transport ants in your area if it becomes apparent that reckless hobbyists have made it necessary to do so. 

 

Edit:

Something else that has also occurred to me is that is is not too uncommon for one wide-ranging species that is physiologically nearly-identical across its entire range to be later split into multiple species as a result of new observations that show that different populations in different areas display different behaviors despite their visual similarity. So perhaps you release a colony of "Formica rufa" that you collected several hundred miles away into an area that desperately needs more Formica rufa according to the local forestry experts, but actually you released unknowingly-improperly described "Formica sort-of-rufa" that while 95% similar has a slight behavioral difference that causes the opposite of whatever desirable effect on the environment that you were attempting to achieve. Or even if it has a neutral effect on the forest overall, the beneficial actual Formica rufa is now competing against a mostly identical species for mostly identical nesting spots and food sources, and so while maybe you have the same amount of F. rufa-like ants in a given area, you might have less actual F. rufa doing the desirable things that you wanted more of them to do.


Edited by Reacker, November 26 2016 - 7:43 PM.

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#10 Offline gcsnelling - Posted November 26 2016 - 7:39 PM

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Reacker pretty much hit it right on.  The Formica reintroduction's are being carried in a manner to minimize the possibility of the introduction of parasites or pathogens which may not be present in that particular ecosystem. It is extremely important that hobbyists do not take it upon themselves to introduce outside material into a new area.

Here are a couple of interesting articles which discuss this topic.

 

http://myrmecologica...&layout=default

 

Buschinger, A. 2004: International Pet Ant Trade Increasing Risk and Danger in Europe – (Hymenoptera, Formicidae). Aliens 19&20, 24-26


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#11 Offline Enderz - Posted November 26 2016 - 7:45 PM

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From what i've been reading here, don't release them. You should either take them with you or kill them somehow.


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#12 Offline Serafine - Posted November 27 2016 - 2:37 AM

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From what I've understood the colony comes from the area he lives in anyway so this should not be an issue. And I seriously doubt he has any pests in his house that are not common in his area anyway - they're not popping out of thin air.


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#13 Offline LC3 - Posted November 27 2016 - 3:00 AM

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From what I've understood the colony comes from the area he lives in anyway so this should not be an issue. And I seriously doubt he has any pests in his house that are not common in his area anyway - they're not popping out of thin air.

That's true, but another thing to point out is that captive colonies are more or less completely isolated. Besides their prey they have no interaction with their native ecosystem. As a result of evolution, and if given enough time pests or microorganisms from their native environment (e.g gut bacteria) will inevitably have been altered in one way or another. 


Edited by LC3, November 27 2016 - 3:01 AM.


#14 Offline gcsnelling - Posted November 27 2016 - 4:10 AM

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It takes almost nothing for a captive colony to become infected with a bacterial or fungal infection, many of which can be airborne. In fact captive colonies are a good bit more likely to succumb to such things. If the colony is carrying a pathogen to which the local ants have not been exposed to for one reason or another they could easily become infected and further spread the infection. Although the risk is admittedly not massively huge it does exist and any responsible ant keeper would never, ever take the chance.



#15 Offline gcsnelling - Posted November 27 2016 - 4:14 AM

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The following applies to the U.S. But here it is illegal to release any wild organism (vertebrate or invertebrate) back into the wild even if you found it just outside your back if door if it has been in captivity for more than just a very short time. I think it goes without saying of course that animals which are more or less domesticated should never be released/abandoned that way either.I suspect many other countries have similar laws even if you are unaware of them.



#16 Offline Serafine - Posted November 27 2016 - 8:13 AM

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If releasing native ants back to the place they came from is so bad people should be screaming in agony about those billions of invasive organisms flushed into the bays, seas and rivers by literally every large ship entering a port. If the same had happened to our land what has happened to our rivers and seas during the last 50 years we'd think we live on Mars by now...


Edited by Serafine, November 27 2016 - 8:13 AM.

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#17 Offline gcsnelling - Posted November 27 2016 - 9:25 AM

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If releasing native ants back to the place they came from is so bad people should be screaming in agony about those billions of invasive organisms flushed into the bays, seas and rivers by literally every large ship entering a port. If the same had happened to our land what has happened to our rivers and seas during the last 50 years we'd think we live on Mars by now...

 Those that know about it and actually do care about the environment pretty much do scream. But as long as the majority don't give a rats [censored] it will continue to happen.



#18 Offline Reacker - Posted November 27 2016 - 9:35 AM

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If releasing native ants back to the place they came from is so bad people should be screaming in agony about those billions of invasive organisms flushed into the bays, seas and rivers by literally every large ship entering a port. If the same had happened to our land what has happened to our rivers and seas during the last 50 years we'd think we live on Mars by now...

Our repeated offenses against the environment in one area are not at all a justification for additional offenses in other areas. 

 

Not that you seem to care. I get the impression that you will continue to do whatever you want to the environment regardless of how increasingly ridiculous and incoherent your justifications have to become so that you do not require yourself to change your own behavior. Bad actors such as yourself are the reason that environmental regulations come to be. 


Edited by Reacker, November 27 2016 - 9:36 AM.

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#19 Offline Solenoqueen - Posted November 27 2016 - 9:55 AM

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If releasing native ants back to the place they came from is so bad people should be screaming in agony about those billions of invasive organisms flushed into the bays, seas and rivers by literally every large ship entering a port. If the same had happened to our land what has happened to our rivers and seas during the last 50 years we'd think we live on Mars by now...

 

Ecologists are actually screaming in agony over this stuff.


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#20 Offline Serafine - Posted November 27 2016 - 11:47 AM

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If releasing native ants back to the place they came from is so bad people should be screaming in agony about those billions of invasive organisms flushed into the bays, seas and rivers by literally every large ship entering a port. If the same had happened to our land what has happened to our rivers and seas during the last 50 years we'd think we live on Mars by now...

Our repeated offenses against the environment in one area are not at all a justification for additional offenses in other areas. 
 
Not that you seem to care. I get the impression that you will continue to do whatever you want to the environment regardless of how increasingly ridiculous and incoherent your justifications have to become so that you do not require yourself to change your own behavior. Bad actors such as yourself are the reason that environmental regulations come to be.

 

I don't care if it is a native species that is brought back to the place it was caught from as long as it isn't obviously sick. People don't give a [censored] what they plant in their gardens here anyway, the count of exotic plants is ridiculous, and more and more of them successfully do the jump over the fence.
 
Aside that I come from Europe and do you seriously believe we still have anything that qualifies as untouched nature in Europe ANYWHERE? The entirety of Europe is a domesticated land that has been shaped by humans for CENTURIES. If we hadn't touched anything Europe would be one single beech wood.
 

Also ecosystems are not set in stone, they change and adapt. If we meant it seriously with preservation (which is destined to fail anyway) we would have to eradicate all of the racoons in our cities (they have become as common as rats), eliminate all great grey parrots in the city of Worms, shoot all the parakeets in Stuttgart, murder all Reahs in Meck-Pom (which isn't even allowed because they are an endangered species), seek out and kill all the Wallabees in german woods (which is most likely forbidden as well), etc. etc., the list is pretty much endless. And that's just land-based stuff, if we want to change our rivers back to what they once where we would have to kill 99% of all life in them and completely start from scratch.

I doubt a single native colony released into the wild can even change a single pixel of this turbulent everchanging picture.

 

 

Bad actors such as yourself are the reason that environmental regulations come to be.

And obviously they are totally working. RIFA must be super impressed judging from the speed at which they conquer the land with the strongest ant regulations.

 

 

If releasing native ants back to the place they came from is so bad people should be screaming in agony about those billions of invasive organisms flushed into the bays, seas and rivers by literally every large ship entering a port. If the same had happened to our land what has happened to our rivers and seas during the last 50 years we'd think we live on Mars by now...

 
Ecologists are actually screaming in agony over this stuff.

 

 
I know, I studied that stuff for some years. However at least in Germany they don't really scream anymore because it is too late anyway. We purged most of our rivers from the 50s to the 70s and when re-naturalization processes were started there wasn't much of a native ecosystem left anyway, so anything that works and is sort of stable is fine here.


Edited by dspdrew, December 21 2016 - 11:56 PM.
Removed profanity

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